As a member of the state government, Chatham's representative in the N.C. House of Representatives, Robert Reives II (D-Chatham) has been among the first to get updates on North Carolina's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.
Last week, he spoke to the News + Record about that response, being a small business owner during the pandemic and the tone of the political conversations around COVID-19. The full video of the interview is available on the News + Record's Facebook page.
How has this time been for you?
It’s actually been busier than what life normally is, surprisingly. I think a lot of people expect the opposite to happen where you've got less going on. But the thing is, now you've got a lot of legislators and business people and things of that sort who are normally out doing things. So we’re suddenly at home and have more free time. And so more free time means more meetings. So we have definitely piled into meetings at this time.
What do you see as the state government’s role and responsibility during COVID-19?
I think the government's got to be supportive of the people. I think that's the whole reason that you're part of a civilized society is for times like this. You get an opportunity now, as a government, to show people where the monies go, why it goes where it goes, and to really make sure that we're supporting, and especially supporting people who are vulnerable to these crises. Traditionally, you immediately think of people in terms of economic vulnerability, but I think economic vulnerability, but I think economy vulnerability actually goes a lot higher of the food chain than you really think, and I think that's what we should be doing is to try to give economies of scale when it comes down to products to try to help marshal resources to get the things that we need. For instance, obviously, we need personal protective equipment. Obviously, we need the ability to test more, things like that. And government can kind of help marshal those resources better than just relying on everybody do this on their own.
What have the early discussions of the House Select Committee on COVID-19 and the economic support working group been centering around?
What we've tried to do is to figure out all the areas that we need help in. So for instance, you have continuity of government, which means governmental functions, elections; you also have economic outreach, which would be unemployment, making sure that we're supporting small businesses, things of that sort. You have the health committee, education — these are all subcommittees within the larger COVID-19 House committee. And so we're trying to think of all the aspects of life that are gonna be touched, and trying to really come up with some good bipartisan solutions that we can vote on next week when we come back into session. We'd like to get that part out of the way as quickly as possible.
And one of the things that's kind of held us up is waiting on the federal response. I know a question a lot of people's minds are like, ‘Why are we waiting on the federal response? Can’t we figure out what we're going to do?' The reality is, the state just doesn't have enough money to make all the things happen that we need to make happen. And so we need to see what type of economic support we'll be able to get from the federal government to then know where we need to spend our money. So for instance, if you're thinking, ‘Okay, we've got to put all our money into the hospitals,’ and all of a sudden, you find out that federal government's going to give a billion dollars to hospitals. Well, now you know, with that money, I could actually go somewhere else with that's why we've got to wait see what that is. So it's been good that a stimulus package has come down from the federal government, that we know that more money will be coming down, and we're really trying to concentrate on filling in all those gaps.
One thing that has been discussed is working with the Golden LEAF Foundation to get some money available to small business. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Golden LEAF has really, really stepped up and trying to do it. What Golden LEAF is tried to do is pretty much present a fund that's kind of a bridge fund. It's not the same as the SBA loans that lot of people have heard about that it'd be coming in for the payroll Protection Act, but it's more of a “trying to get you through until you can get those funds” type of loans. Golden LEAF's already given out, I know at one point the budget was $15 million. We just recommended a bill to increase that amount, but Golden LEAF’s really, really trying to make sure that they're there to kind of fill in the gap.
That's one of the few that didn't get worked over because everybody felt good about doing that for Golden LEAF. Of course, we don't know what it's going to look like because we expect there's going to be a large omnibus bill that covers all of these issues. We don't know what it's gonna look like in that bill. But as far as what's coming out of our committee, I think that's gonna stay as it is.
You said something about not having enough funds to cover what you guys want to do. The General Assembly has has had this rainy day fund of multiple billions of dollars they talked about for years. Is anything going to come out of that?
Well, we're going to use that money. There's no issue. But the reality is, that type of money isn't really built for this type of pandemic. And it's not built for this type of economic situation. We’re probably going to be looking at something that eclipses the Great Recession of 10 years ago, and so, that money is good to have, but that money is going to come nowhere near being the amount of money that we need to help us fight through this as a community.
Why should people care about what you guys are doing in Raleigh? Why should the average Chatham citizen who's like, ‘This is not really my concern,’ why should they be concerned and pay attention to what you guys are doing Raleigh?
Well, one glaring reason I would start off with is because that's going to determine what your counties and you cities are able to do. County budgets are going to be destroyed by this pandemic, city budgets are gonna be destroyed, tax revenues not coming in, property tax revenue, things of that sort, sales tax.
For instance, one things that I fought for whenever it was a Chatham and Lee County district was to help Lee County get an occupancy tax. Of course, nobody's staying in hotels now. So there's no money coming in from that tax. So those monies have got to get supplanted. Those monies come from the states, just as we're waiting on the feds to help us know what we're going to do with our state budget. Then counties and municipalities are waiting for the state to find out what they're going to do with their budgets, because they're going to be so many holes that they're going to have over the next probably two years that we're going to have to help fill. So immediately, that would be the reason I would be concerned if I were somebody living in the county.
And plus the health issue is going to be something that states really have to take the lead on. You look at all the rural hospitals that we have here in North Carolina, and just imagine if there's no support, there's no plan and there's no system, what could happen if we had a another heavy outbreak. Right now, we've been really, really lucky and really, really blessed that we haven't had our systems taxed, but then you look just a couple of states up the road and you look at places like New York, where they're just running out of everything.
We don't know what our real exposure is right now. Obviously, we're still testing, trying to find out what's going on. But the reality is that you've got to make sure that your state's ready to take the reins as soon as something like this happens.
There's been a lot of discussion over some of the actions that the state COVID-19 Task Force and Gov. Cooper have taken regarding some of the restrictions. Do you think everything so far has been been appropriate and all the restrictions and closing schools, all that's been good?
I think Gov. Cooper has done an outstanding job. I think he's been put in a situation that was difficult, to say the least, and definitely not casting aspersions or blame at the federal government level. Nobody's ever had to deal with this. But we kind of started behind the eight ball getting on top of this, and Gov. Cooper, I think, did an amazing job.
I think the reason North Carolina hasn't been hit harder than it has been is because of his leadership and making sure that we’ve got a lot of these things in place. And I know how frustrating it’s been — I've got a small business. And I know how frustrating it's been for people to have their businesses shuttered, to have had their jobs taken. That's bad. But the reality is that you really only had a couple of options. And if we had kept going, if there have been no restrictions, there had been nothing in place – based on what we've been told by the CDC and by DHHS and other health organizations, we would have been looking at some pretty dire straits with people with illness, with people dying.
The reality is, harshest reality as it is, is if you don't try to do things to control this, people die. This isn't something where people get sniffles and keep on going. I mean, people are dying and dying at alarming rates. The coronavirus has now become the leading killer in the United States. And if you think about that, that’s just been in a couple of months, and it's already the leading cause of death. Without putting the restrictions in place and letting this spread rapidly, there's no telling what type of devastation there would have been on our economic system. If we don't have people going out, then they're still not contributing to the economy.
I think he's really made some wise decisions. I think he's taken all the information and taken all the viewpoints, because there are people who are ready to reopen now, there are people who never would have closed. And on the flip side, there are people who wouldn't reopen for the rest of the year, that being the reality. So I think that he's tried to be measured. I think he's tried to listen to everybody's viewpoint. He's tried to put all that together along with the medical information that he's got and give a good three-pronged plan to get us reopened, getting us back to the new normal.
And the reality is, again, that we don't know. The good thing is that we're going to be able to try to ramp up testing. And as we ramp up testing, that gives us more certainty. As we watch the number of cases, as we watch what our trends are, as we watch to see if we have any more spikes or anything of that sort, then he has a plan in place that's going to allow us to be flexible. (If) we see a huge increase, he’s got a plan in place that helps us do what we've got to do to try to stop that. And if we end up in a situation where we really have hit the peak and everything really starts to calm down, then he can celebrate some of the phases. So I think he's really, really done a good job thinking this out, and putting together everybody's concerns and try to put us in a position to stay healthy, to stay safe, but at the same time be able to keep our economy going.
You mentioned you owning a small business, a law firm and Sanford and with courts closed, a lot of cases continued, a lot of a lot of courts closed. What does that been like for you as an attorney?
You got the same problem in most businesses. Those of us who were really blessed and lucky enough to be able to stay open as essential businesses, that definitely meant a lot. But the flip side of that equation is, is with an unprecedented amount of unemployment, people aren't able to pay for services. And so with the courts closed, the reality is that your emergency is not about what's going on in court, your emergency is trying to make sure that you're gonna be able to keep your lights on next week, you’re going to be able to get your rent paid, mortgage paid, keep your kids fed. And so with that being a reality, a lot of businesses like ours are in a situation where even though people are trying their best to patronize your business, the reality is they don't have the money to pay for it, and we understand that.
Has there been anything in your life that’s prepared you for this?
I don't think you get prepared necessarily. But I do think that I've been really, really lucky. I've had a chance to serve with some and happen to be the son of some longtime elected officials. Even though we haven't seen anything exactly like this, we've had people who've had the wisdom to understand that things like this happen. With that being said, I think that we've been prepared in that sense, to know that there are things we can put in place.
Now, frankly, are there some things I would have loved to have seen in place already? Yes. I would have loved to have seen us to have done more to help people with health insurance. I would have loved to have seen us to have done more with the issue that you and I have talked off-channel a lot with broadband.
I think of all the kids who are right now trying to keep up, and we’ve got kids in Chatham County that are going to be behind when the school year starts back up. There's no ifs, ands or buts about that and it’s strictly because we as a state haven't taken our broadband issue seriously, Broadband to me, at this stage, ought to be the same as electricity and water. We’ve got to make sure that people have it because of situations like this. So, in that sense, it wasn't that hard to see, at some point, this might happen.
If more people had health insurance, more people were comfortable going to the doctor, then we probably could have jumped on this a little bit earlier, despite not having guidance at a federal level. When you think about some of the practicalities – if you and I start to feel bad, you know, with our, with industries that we're in, we know immediately the steps to take. Think of how many people who are afraid even go to the doctor, how many people who feel like with some of the symptoms that you would have on COVID-19, that they're not serious enough to take themselves for medical treatment. And those people don't get less sick, just because they don't have health insurance. So again, I think we'd be a better would have been better off societally, if we had put some things like that in place.
With all that being said, I think that mentally, you can't prepare for what this is done, how this has changed things. Both you and I are blessed that we both still have our parents alive, but not feeling comfortable — my mother's high risk, not feeling comfortable hugging my mother, that type of thing. It's a lot to take in.
How much have you kept tabs on Chatham’s number and Chatham’s response to what's going on? What's your assessment of that?
Well, I think Chatham has done an amazing job as the county taking care of (this), but the numbers are alarming. If you look at some of the numbers for the Triangle, we actually have the highest number of cases per 10,000 residents of anybody in Triangle area. We’re ahead of Wake, we're ahead of everybody. I think we're at 20.08 per 10,000 and that's scary. We've already had six deaths.
It's scary because part of it was the outbreak obviously at the nursing home. But actually a lot of these cases are completely outside and completely independent of that. The problem that we have is that we're a rural county. But in the areas where people are forced to congregate, they're actually forced to congregate. It's been scary watching it go through Chatham County.
But the good thing is I think the county has been amazingly responsive, resilient, and that people have done an outstanding job of trying to follow good guidelines to make sure they stay healthy. So I definitely don't think it's anything where it's been any fault at all. I think it's been more of, with Chatham 60-plus percent of us go outside of the county to work. We're going outside to these other counties and then coming back home and we're even more exposed to that point. So we just got some really tough circumstances that are coming back at us right now.
I really feel that this has become a very become a political topic, just like anything else. There's been statements from Lt. Gov. Dan Forest and the reopen and see protests specifically at Gov. Cooper. I know you're someone who pays attention to politics, statewide and nationally. What do you make of the the tone around the discussion around COVID-19?
Incredibly destructive. I can candidly say that I was naive enough to believe that a pandemic like this, that a crisis like this was going to be so serious that people would put down their partisan hats, and I think most people did. I think 90 percent of us forgot what party we were in, we forgot what lines we took within our parties, what lines we take on different issues, and we banded together and we did the right thing. But there's still some.
I understand what happens with people in these situations, because you've got information coming from all sides. You've got information from sources that you might trust, and somebody else might not trust, and they're telling you one thing, you hear something else, so you don't know what to follow. But the biggest responsibility you have as an elected official is to make sure that you're giving accurate information to people about what's going on. And I think that some of the information that was given out by small number, but a few important, elected officials was incredibly disappointing.
We hear the same briefings, they don't separate our briefings by party. Whether you're Democrat, Republican, unaffiliated, Libertarian, Constitutional party, Green Party – you get the exact same briefing. When you hear these numbers and you hear what we're going through as a country, as a state, as a county, and then you hear the information that is put out it – I'll put it like this.
Whenever I first started running in 2014, we had fracking, and a lot of people telling us how great fracking was. But it was interesting – other than wanting to have fracking in their own counties, they would just vote in to have fracking in our counties. I’m seeing the same thing with the virus. It's interesting to hear some of the elected officials that are encouraging people, that we shouldn't be staying at home, we shouldn't be doing these things, but at the exact same time, they're testing every human being that comes near them. And they're staying at home, and they're staying out of their businesses.
I think that whatever is good for the people that I represent should be good enough for me. If I feel like that we're at a point where we need to stay at home and social distance and do things responsibly, I think that's what I ought to be telling people. So I've been really disappointed people who have taken political advantage of this, but I've been so proud of all the Republicans, Democrats, unaffiliated and all other elected officials who have banded together like a lot of people I've served on these committees who have taken this thing seriously, and even if they have different opinions, understanding that our responsibility is to the people that we serve. Whatever our personal opinions are don't matter. What we need to do is what's going to help the people we serve keep going economically, but at the same time, keep them safe. And I've been really proud of those.
So to answer your question, 90 percent of the people and 90 percent of the folks have gotten involved in this I've been extremely proud of, and it's made me just very happy. But there are a couple of folks that I'm just really, really disappointed that all they saw was political opposition.
It is an election year. It is for you as well. So what's it like thinking about running for office during a time like this?
It’s completely different. I mean, you think about one of the things that you've seen an uptick up in the last four years of politics is going out meeting people and seeing people. I was lucky enough to be running in 2016, which was our last presidential election. And I can't remember more than one day passing without being at a large group gathering where you got a chance to meet and interact with people and talk to people about their concerns, things of that sort. And the reality is that probably up until Election Day, we’re probably not going to have those opportunities. You can't go knocking on somebody's door in the neighborhood. You can’t be at these different functions and have a chance to really touch people and talk to people and find out what their issues are, what they're concerned about, what they're worried about, and I hate that. That’s the part I enjoy, is being able to hear from different constituents and different people – not just those that have an opportunity to vote for me, but vote all over this state and talk about the issues that they're concerned about, the ways that they want to see the state moving forward.
Now we've got to try to do that and more inventive ways, just like you and I are having this interview now on Zoom. This would normally be a sit down with you and I somewhere, over water or coffee and bandying about some of the issues – we can't do that anymore. And so that that's the big deal.
My big concern is making sure that people are able to participate in the process in November, because I personally feel that the the events of the last two to three months, at a minimum, have told me how important it is that we all participate in our electoral process and we all participate in governments and our government is responsive and responsive to us. That’s my biggest concern, is making sure that people are still in a position that they're able to safely participate in the process.
There’s been a lot of talk about mail-in ballots and expanding access to it. That’s been a thing for a long time, and I think we’ll probably see more people taking advantage of that.
Yes. And I hope that we make sure to stay out of people's way and allow them to do that. Because these are real serious times. With this virus, there doesn't seem to be a lot of middle ground. And I'd hate for people to be thinking that they have to risk their lives in order to exercise the right to vote. But that's part of what being in government is. Whatever you feel about any of these processes shouldn't matter. What matters is, how do we make sure that this works best for the people that we serve, and if that's the way to make it work best, let’s get out of the way and let it work.